Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

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DD-Indeed
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Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by DD-Indeed » November 13th, 2016, 5:07 am

Hey there!

I'm gonna buy that rare Dual Analog controller in a couple days, since I managed to get hold into one of those. However, I've read some discussions about it, that it might burn a controller input board fuse from the console, due too high power consuption of the rumble motors. Sony quickly took those away from sale (back in '97 I think ?) and brought the first Dual Shocks to the market with redesigned rumble systems and size. But some of those Dual Analogs are still around, allthou rare.


My question is, that could I just put Dual Shock-parts to it, those go in without any issues ? Dual Analog controller's only difference to original controller and Dual Shock is, that is has long handles, which I would definitely like to have. So, putting Dual Shock-stuff into Dual Analog would solve the fuse blowing issue.

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by Shadow » November 13th, 2016, 11:02 am

I've used the SCPH-1180 and I've never heard of such an issue. If it were even true, the only way I could see it blowing a fuse is if you were using two of them at the same time, or using them with a multi-tap and bypassing the library fail-safes on the motor regulations. One way to check is take the controller apart and put a meter on it in series and compare it with a regular DUAL-SHOCK afterwards. Otherwise, it's all just unproven speculation.
Development Console: SCPH-5502 with 8MB RAM, MM3 Modchip, PAL 60 Colour Modification (for NTSC), PSIO Switch Board, DB-9 breakout headers for both RGB and Serial output and an Xplorer with CAETLA 0.34.

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by DD-Indeed » November 14th, 2016, 3:27 am

Gotcha.

Btw, here's some comparison pictures of the Dual Analog (SCPH-1080) and Dual Shock (SCPH-1200) that I just took (dissassembled the Dual Analog and washed the buttons and the case):


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image



As you can see, the main difference is that the SCPH-1080 has some sort of chips on the main PCB itself and the analog stick board is just blank, only connecting the sticks to the mainboard, whereas in the SCPH-1200, the mainboard itself is simple and the stuff has been moved to the analog stick PCB, that has been sized up a lot.

The analog stick mechanic parts themselves are the same, but after taking off the pads to clean them, I saw, that you can't swap the pads between those two: the pad axle on the SCPH-1080 is round one made from metal, whereas it's curved plastic on the SCPH-1200. This is propably due the fact, that the analog pads can spin around in the axles of the SCPH-1080's and can cause some frustration to people obviosly (like, when pressing up on the left analog pad, the pad can spin to the right and you're then pressing right ---> very frustrating indeed). Propably that was one of the reasons, why they pulled these controllers out from the market, a design mistake.

Other than that, only minor differences can be found in these controllers, almost all plastic parts are swappable between both models, however, the silicone parts inside have some quality/material differences and the Analog-button is taller, exposed from the hole in the SCPH-1080. It's just flat with the controller's surface on SCPH-1200. This was apparrently changed due, that some people accidentally pressed the Analog-button, mistaking it as Start or Select on SCPH-1080 (IMO, that's very weird reason, why they would change something like that...).

R2/L2 shoulder buttons are different, they're shorter, but with this rised edge on the SCPH-1080, and they are screwed in with this small plastic holder. On SCPH-1200, the shoulder buttons are ''free'', after you just remove the PCB and other stuff.

One thing I also noticed, is that the SCPH-1080 has only place for the small rumble motor, but, I couldn't find any places from the PCB, where you could solder that in. And there was no place for the bigger motor in the other side at all.

I can take pictures from the case itself, if someone would need those.

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by ploder » November 16th, 2016, 3:08 am

I remember back in the day reading a magazine that claimed that the Japanese Dual Analog controllers (the only ones that had the rumble motors) were either causing damage to the other components in the controller or the console itself. It was a long time ago, but perhaps it was in the news section of - quite possibly - official uk playstation magazine under the heading: 'exploding playstations'. Unfortunately I no longer have my magazines and a quick online search hasn't shed any light on the matter...

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by DD-Indeed » November 16th, 2016, 10:52 am

ploder wrote:I remember back in the day reading a magazine that claimed that the Japanese Dual Analog controllers (the only ones that had the rumble motors) were either causing damage to the other components in the controller or the console itself. It was a long time ago, but perhaps it was in the news section of - quite possibly - official uk playstation magazine under the heading: 'exploding playstations'. Unfortunately I no longer have my magazines and a quick online search hasn't shed any light on the matter...

This was the thing I heard too and mentioned on previous comment. Perhaps that was one of the reasons why Sony pulled it out from the sale ? Bad design on the rumble motor system, that caused damage to PS1's electrics ?

I've now played some hours with that controller, and I must say, that it feels extremely comfortable, fits like a glove. Dual Shock feels good too of course, but Dual Analog is even more superior to that in terms of fitting into hands. Very comfortable, very good grip and feeling, and suprisingly, those hollow analog pad tops have good grip, even thou they're made from plastic and have no rubber coating, like the ones in Dual Shock has. Sony perhaps had some design issues with those, but they should have kept them on sale, allthou on small quantities. Some people have big hands, thick fingers or long fingers, where Dual Shock feels a bit too small. Sony listened too much of japanese audiences and did the decision based on their feedback, which was, that the controller is huge. Well of course it's for them, but rest of the world had the audience for bigger controller. Shame.

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by nocash » July 11th, 2017, 12:10 am

Just a quick run-down on the different joypads:

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* SCPH-1010  digital joypad (with short cable)
* SCPH-1080  digital joypad (with longer cable)
* SCPH-1150  analog joypad (with one vibration motor, with red/green led)
* SCPH-1180  analog joypad (without vibration motors, with red/green led)
* SCPH-1200  analog joypad (with two vibration motors) (dualshock)
* SCPH-110   analog joypad (with two vibration motors) (dualshock for psone)
Uhm... I guess your analog SCPH-1080 is a typo, and you meant an analog SCPH-1180? And, as you said, it doesn't have rumble motors, so it should be safe to say that the (absent) rumble feature in that model can't possibly overload the power supply/fuses ; )

I've recently got a SCPH-1150 (many thanks to TriMesh for donating it), this weekend I finally got around to take it apart (I'll post the component list and pinouts later), and, after reassembling it, also did some software tests on it...

Concerning timings, the SCPH-1150 is by far the worst/slowest PSX controller that I've seen so far: It does require a huge delay (around 500 clock cycles) between the controller select signal and the first databit being transferred (digital joypads seem to work fine without any such delay, and other analog pads do require some delay, but it can be much shorter than 500 clocks).
The official kernel contains a delay with more than 2000 clocks, which isn't really needed by any known controllers. In custom code one can use less than 2000 clocks, but, for SCPH-1150 compatibilty, one shouldn't go below 500 clocks.

The analog input range is a bit different: Later pads can reach the min/max values (00h and FFh) only in straight horizontal OR vertical directions (but NOT in diagonal directions). Eg. on later pads the smallest values for upper-left would be x=11h, y=11h. But the SCPH-1150 does actually reach x=00h, y=00h for upper-left, as well as x=FFh, y=FFh for lower-right direction.

The analog pads are somewhat known for their special rumble configuration commands. I've expected that commands to exist on SCPH-1150, too, possibly with some different responses in respect to the missing 2nd motor. But surprisingly, it doesn't support any such config commands. It does reply only to the normal "read" command (42h), but doesn't reply to the "enter config mode" command (43h), and thereby, also doesn't support any of the extra commands in config mode.

So that leaves question how to enable the rumble motor (normally it's done by unlocking rumble in config mode, and then sending two motor bytes inserted in the normal "read" command). Turned out that SCPH-1150 doesn't need that unlock command, and one can directly send motor bytes via the "read" command...

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  Send  01h 42h 00h xx  yy  (00h 00h 00h 00h)
  Reply HiZ id  5Ah buttons ( analog-inputs )
The rumble motor is simply controlled by three bits in the xx/yy bytes:
  xx --> must be 40h..7Fh            (ie. bit7=0, bit6=1) ;\switches motor on
  yy --> must be 01h,03h,...,FDh,FFh (ie. bit0=1)         ;/
The motor control is digital on/off (no analog slow/fast), recommended values
would be yyxx=0140h=on, and yyxx=0000h=off.
In this case the xx/yy bytes have different meaning as on later pads (where they are using xx for one motor, and yy for the other motor). At least that's different once when the newer pads have unlocked rumble in config mode - when not doing that, it turned out the newer pads are backwards compatible with the above motor control scheme (allowing to use the small motor only; for the other motor one will need to use the config/unlock commands).

The LED state is don't care (rumble works with led OFF, RED, and GREEN). In absence of config commands, the LED can be controlled only manually (via Analog button), the current LED state is implied in the controller "id" byte.
Last edited by nocash on July 11th, 2017, 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by nocash » July 11th, 2017, 12:50 am

Okay, here are the component list and pinouts for the SCPH-1150, and also for SCPH-1200 and SCPH-110. Oh, and comparing it with your photos, here also some questions/comments...

Going by the photos, your SCPH-1180 has the same mainboard/daughterboard than my SCPH-1150 (DD1P09A=mainboard, and DD1Q14A=daughterboard). Including for having motor solder pads on both boards (motor would connect to J1, but you'd also need to install the missing resistors/transistors).

Your SCPH-1200 looks quite different than my own SCPH-1200. I still have the microcontroller located on the digital button board (and the analog sticks on daughterboard). And you have that vice-versa: The microcrontroller on the analog stick board, and the buttons on a single-sided daughterboard... seems to be a newer revision (and even later, in SCPH-110, they seem to have replaced the button daughterboard by a membrane/foil).

If you've time to take your controllers apart another time... would be interesting to know if you have the same microcontrollers in there (the part numbers aren't legible on the photos)... or if you can spot some other differences inside... and which part numbers you have at the bottom side of the case.

SCPH-1150, with one rumble motor

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Pinouts - Component List and Chipset Pin-Outs for Analog Joypad, SCPH-1150
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analog Joypad Component List (SCPH-1150, single motor)
  Case "SONY, ANALOG, CONTROLLER, SonyCompEntInc. A, SCPH-1150 MADE IN CHINA"
  PCB1 "DD1P09A" (mainboard with digital buttons)
  PCB2 "DD1Q14A" (daughterboard with analog joysticks)
  PCB3 "DD1Q15A-R" (daughterboard with R-1, R-2 buttons) (J3)
  PCB4 "DD1Q15A-L" (daughterboard with L-1, L-2 buttons) (J2)
  U1  42pin "SD657, 9702K3006"   (2x21pins, L=17.8mm, W=7mm, W+Pins=11mm)
  U2   3pin "DR, 4.Z"
  Q1   3pin "BQ03" or so (motor post-amp)
  Q2   3pin "S6","SG","9S" or so (motor pre-amp)
  Y1   3pin "400CMA"
  CN1  8pin cable to PSX controller port
  CN2  8pin ribbon cable to analog-joystick daughterboard (not so robust cable)
  J1   2pin wires to rumble motor (in left handle)
  J2   3pin ribbon cable to L-1, L-2 button daughterboard
  J3   3pin ribbon cable to R-1, R-2 button daughterboard
  LED1 4pin red/green LED (optics without mirror)
  D1,D2 diodes
  plus resistors/capacitors

Analog Joypad Connection Cables (SCPH-1150)
CN1 (cable to PSX controller port) (same for SCPH-1150 and SCPH-1200)
  PSX.1 -------brown---- PAD.2 JOYDAT
  PSX.2 -------orange--- PAD.6 JOYCMD
  PSX.3 -------magenta-- PAD.8 +7.5V
  PSX.4 -------black---- PAD.3 GND
  PSX.5 -------red------ PAD.4 +3.5V
  PSX.6 -------yellow--- PAD.5 /JOYn
  PSX.7 -------blue----- PAD.7 JOYCLK
  PSX.8 ---              NC    /IRQ10
  PSX.9 -------green---- PAD.1 /ACK
  PSX.Shield --shield--- NC    (cable is shielded but isn't connected in
joypad)
CN2 (ribbon cable to analog-joystick daughterboard) (SCPH-1150)
  8 +3.5V to POT pins
  7 Button L3 pins A,C
  6 GND to POT pins and Button L3/R3 pins B,D
  5 Button R3 pins A,C
  4 Axis R_Y middle POT pin (SD657.18)
  3 Axis R_X middle POT pin (SD657.17)
  2 Axis L_Y middle POT pin (SD657.16)
  1 Axis L_X middle POT pin (SD657.15)
J3 (ribbon cable to R-1, R-2 button daughterboard) (SCPH-1150)
  1 (red)  R1
  2 (gray) GND
  3 (gray) R2
J2 (ribbon cable to L-1, L-2 button daughterboard) (SCPH-1150)
  1 (red)  L1
  2 (gray) GND
  3 (gray) L2
J1 wires to small rumble motor (SCPH-1150)
  1 (red)   +7.5V
  2 (black) Q1

Analog Joypad Chipset Pin-Outs (SCPH-1150)
U1 42pin "SD657, 9702K3006"
  1  NC?
  2  NC?
  3  /RESET? (U2.3)
  4  OSC
  5  OSC
  6  BUTTON Bit3 START SW1
  7  BUTTON Bit2 R3 (via CN2.5)
  8  BUTTON Bit1 L3 (via CN2.7)
  9  BUTTON Bit0 SELECT SW3
  10 GND
  11 BUTTON Bit7 LEFT  SW4
  12 BUTTON Bit6 DOWN  SW5
  13 BUTTON Bit5 RIGHT SW6
  14 BUTTON Bit4 UP    SW7
  15 Analog Axis L_X (via CN2.1)
  16 Analog Axis L_Y (via CN2.2)
  17 Analog Axis R_X (via CN2.3)
  18 Analog Axis R_Y (via CN2.4)
  19 NC?
  20 3.5V
  21 3.5V
  ---
  22 BUTTON Bit15 [] SW11
  23 BUTTON Bit14 >< SW10
  24 BUTTON Bit13 () SW9
  25 BUTTON Bit11 R1 (via J3.1)
  26 BUTTON Bit12 /\ SW8
  27 BUTTON Bit10 L1 (via J3.1)
  28 BUTTON Bit9  R2 (via J3.3)
  29 BUTTON Bit8  L2 (via J3.3)
  30 PSX.2/CN1.6 JOYCMD  orange (via 220 ohm R14)
  31 PSX.1/CN1.2.JOYDAT  brown  (via 22 ohm R13 and diode D2)
  32 PSX.7/CN1.7 JOYCLK  blue   (via 220 ohm R12)
  33 PSX.6/CN1.5./JOYn   yellow (via 220 ohm R11)
  34 LED.GREEN (LED.4)
  35 LED.RED   (LED.3)
  36 MOTOR (via 4.7Kohm R8 to Q2, then via Q1 to motor)
  37 NC?
  38 NC?
  39 PSX.9/CN1.1./ACK    green  (via 22 ohm R10)
  40 NC?
  41 MODE SW2 (analog button)
  42 GND
U2 (probably reset signal related)
  1  from 3.5V (via R1,D1,R2)
  2  to U1.3 (/RESET?) (U2.rear contact = same as U2.pin2)
  3  GND
Q1 "BQ03" or so (motor post-amp)
  1  Q2.2 (via 1Kohm R7)
  2  to Motor (-)
  3  GND
Q2 "S6","SG","9S" or so (motor pre-amp)
  1  SD657.36 (via 4.7Kohm R8)
  2  Q1.1 (via 1Kohm R7) (and via 100Kohm R13 to GND)
  3  3.5V

Motor
Left/Single Motor (SCPH-1150)
  27.5mm Total Length (18.5mm Motor, 2mm Axis, 7mm Weight/block)
  12.0mm Width/Diameter (of Weight, and of Motor at flat side)
SCPH-1200, with two rumble motors, PSX-design

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Pinouts - Component List and Chipset Pin-Outs for Analog Joypad, SCPH-1200
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analog Joypad Component List (SCPH-1200, two motors)
  Case "SONY, ANALOG, CONTROLLER, SonyCompEntInc. H, SCPH-1200 MADE IN CHINA"
  PCB1 "01, /\YG-H2, (r)RU" (mainboard with digital buttons)
  PCB2 "M-29-01, YG-H3, (r)RU" (daughterboard with analog joysticks)
  PCB3 "E, /\YG-H2, (r)RU, 01" (daughterboard with R-1, R-2 buttons) (J1)
  PCB4 "01, W, /\YG-H2, (r)RU" (daughterboard with L-1, L-2 buttons) (J2)
  U1 44pin "SONY, CXD8771Q 4A03, JAPAN 9840 HAL, 148896"
  U2  4pin ",\\ 29" (PST9329) (System Reset with 2.9V detection voltage)
  U3  8pin "2904, 8346G, JRC" (NJM2904) (Dual Operational Amplifier)
  Q1  3pin ".Y S'" (big transistor for big M1 rumble motor)
  Q2  3pin "Z" (small transistor for small M2 rumble motor)
  Y1  3pin "800CMLX" or so (hides underneath of the CN2 ribbon cable)
  CN1 8pin cable to PSX controller port
  CN2 8pin ribbon cable to analog-joystick daughterboard
  J1  3pin ribbon cable to R-1, R-2 button daughterboard
  J2  3pin ribbon cable to L-1, L-2 button daughterboard
  M1  2pin wires to big rumble motor
  M2  2pin wires to small rumble motor
  ZD1,ZD2 some Z-diodes
  D1,D2 diodes near M1,M2 motors (these diodes aren't installed)
  LED1  red analog mode LED (with transparent optics/light direction mirror)
  plus resistors/capacitors

Note: There's also a different SCPH-1200 revision, which having a smaller
mainboard with analog joysticksonboard, plus a single sided PCB for the digital
buttons (that is, similar to SCPH-110, but with the single sided PCB instead of
membrane foil).

Analog Joypad Connection Cables (SCPH-1200)
CN1 (cable to PSX controller port) (same for SCPH-1150 and SCPH-1200)
  PSX.1 -------brown---- PAD.2 JOYDAT
  PSX.2 -------orange--- PAD.6 JOYCMD
  PSX.3 -------magenta-- PAD.8 +7.5V
  PSX.4 -------black---- PAD.3 GND
  PSX.5 -------red------ PAD.4 +3.5V
  PSX.6 -------yellow--- PAD.5 /JOYn
  PSX.7 -------blue----- PAD.7 JOYCLK
  PSX.8 ---              NC    /IRQ10
  PSX.9 -------green---- PAD.1 /ACK
  PSX.Shield --shield--- NC    (cable is shielded but isn't connected in
joypad)
CN2 (ribbon cable to analog-joystick daughterboard) (SCPH-1200)
  1 +3.5V to POT pins
  2 Button L3 pins C,D
  3 GND to POT pins and Button L3/R3 pins A,B
  4 Button R3 pins C,D
  5 Axis R_Y middle POT pin (CXD.20)
  6 Axis R_X middle POT pin (CXD.19)
  7 Axis L_X middle POT pin (CXD.21)
  8 Axis L_Y middle POT pin (CXD.22)
J1 (ribbon cable to R-1, R-2 button daughterboard) (SCPH-1200)
  1 (red)  R1
  2 (gray) GND
  3 (gray) R2
J2 (ribbon cable to L-1, L-2 button daughterboard) (SCPH-1200)
  1 (red)  L1
  2 (gray) GND
  3 (gray) L2
M1 wires to big rumble motor (SCPH-1200)
  + (red)   Q1.E
  - (black) GND
M2 wires to small rumble motor (SCPH-1200)
  + (red)   +7.5V
  - (black) Q2.C

Analog Joypad Chipset Pin-Outs (SCPH-1200)
U1 SONY CXD8771Q
  1 PSX.7/CN1.7 JOYCLK (via 220 ohm R2)
  2 via R10 to U3.3 (for big M1 motor)
  3 via R15 to Q2.B (for small M2 motor)
  4 GND
  5 BUTTON Bit15 []
  6 BUTTON Bit14 ><
  7 BUTTON Bit13 ()
  8 BUTTON Bit12 /  9 BUTTON Bit11 R1 (via J1.1)
  10 BUTTON Bit10 L1 (via J2.1)
  11 BUTTON Bit9 R2 (via J1.3)
  ---
  12 BUTTON Bit8 L2 (via J2.3)
  13 GND
  14 U2.Pin3 (reset)
  15 Y1'a
  16 Y1'b
  17 GND
  18 +3.5V
  19 Analog Axis R_X via CN2.6
  20 Analog Axis R_Y via CN2.5
  21 Analog Axis L_X via CN2.7
  22 Analog Axis L_Y via CN2.8
  ---
  23 GND
  24 GND
  25 GND
  26 GND
  27 GND
  28 +3.5V
  29 BUTTON Bit0 SELECT
  30 BUTTON Bit1 L3 (via CN2.2)
  31 BUTTON Bit2 R3 (via CN2.4)
  32 BUTTON Bit3 START
  33 BUTTON Bit4 UP
  ---
  34 BUTTON Bit5 RIGHT (aka spelled RIHGT on the PCB)
  35 BUTTON Bit6 DOWN
  36 BUTTON Bit7 LEFT
  37 PSX.6/CN1.5./JOYn  (via 220 ohm R1)
  38 ANALOG BUTTON
  39 GND
  40 +3.5V
  41 /LED (to LED1, and from there via 300 ohm R6 to +3.5V)
  42 PSX.9/CN1.1./ACK   (via 22 ohm R5)
  43 PSX.1/CN1.2.JOYDAT (via 22 ohm R3)
  44 PSX.2/CN1.6 JOYCMD (via 220 ohm R4)
U2 PST9329 (System Reset with 2.9V detection voltage)
  1 NC   GND
  2 GND  GND
  3 Vout U1.14
  4 VCC  +3.5V
U3 NJM2904 (Dual Operational Amplifier)
  1 A.OUTPUT  Q1.B (big motor M1 transistor)
  2 A.INPUT-  to R11/R12
  3 A.INPUT+  to R10/R17
  4 GND       PSX.4/CN1.3 GND
  5 B.INPUT+  GND
  6 B.INPUT-  NC?
  7 B.OUTPUT  NC?
  8 VCC       PSX.3/CN1.8 +7.5V
Q1 (transistor for big M1 motor)
  E M1+
  B U3.1 (NJM2904)
  C +7.5V
Q2 (transistor for small M2 motor)
  E GND
  B via 1K ohm R15 to U1.3 (CXD), and via 100K ohm R16 to GND
  C M2-

Motors
 Left/Large Motor (SCPH-1200)
  24.0mm Total Length (12.0mm Motor, 2.5mm Axis, 9.5mm Weight/plates)
  24.0mm Diameter (Motor), 20.0mm Diameter (Weight/plates)
 Right/Small Motor (SCPH-1200)
  25.4mm Total Length (18.7mm Motor, 2mm Axis, 4.7mm Weight/plates)
  12.0mm Width/Diameter (of Weight, and of Motor at flat side)
SCPH-110, with two rumble motors, PSone-design

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Pinouts - Component List and Chipset Pin-Outs for Analog Joypad, SCPH-110
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analog Joypad Component List (SCPH-110, two motors, PSone-design)
  Case "SONY, ANALOG CONTROLLER, SonyCompEntInc. A, SCPH-110 MADE IN CHINA"
  PCB1 "SA1Q22A, <PF-LP>, KPC, 7694V-0" (mainboard with joysticks onboard)
  PCB2 "..." (membrane/foil with digital buttons)
  U1  44pin "SD707, 039 107"" (4x11pin)
  Q1   3pin "KA" (big transistor for left/big M1 rumble motor)
  Q2   3pin "LG" (small transistor for right/small M2 rumble motor)
  D1   2pin diode (for large motor, reference Z-diode with pull-up?)
  D2   3pin dual-diode (R5/IRQ7 to GND and R3/DAT to GND)
  CN1  9pin cable to PSX controller port
  J1  16pin ribbon cable from membrane/foil
  M1   2pin wires to left/big rumble motor
  M2   2pin wires to right/small rumble motor
  LED1 2pin red analog mode LED (with long legs, without mirror/optics)
  plus resistors/capacitors

Analog Joypad Connection Cables (SCPH-110)
CN1 (cable to PSX controller port)
  1 +3.5V (logic supply)
  2 GND3  (logic supply)
  3 /IRQ7
  4 /SEL
  5 CMD
  6 DAT
  7 CLK
  8 GND7  (motor supply)
  9 +7.5V (motor supply)
J1 (ribbon cable with membrane/foil with digital buttons)
  1 BUTTON Bit8 L2
  2 BUTTON Bit10 L1
  3 BUTTON Bit4 UP
  4 BUTTON Bit5 RIGHT
  5 BUTTON Bit6 DOWN
  6 BUTTON Bit7 LEFT
  7 GND3
  8 ANALOG BUTTON
  9 BUTTON Bit0 SELECT
  10 BUTTON Bit3 START
  11 BUTTON Bit15 SQUARE   []
  12 BUTTON Bit14 CROSS    ><
  13 BUTTON Bit13 CIRCLE   ()
  14 BUTTON Bit12 TRIANGLE /  15 BUTTON Bit11 R1
  16 BUTTON Bit9 R2
M1 wires to left/big rumble motor (SCPH-110)
  1 (red)   Q1
  2 (black) GND (via some ohm)
M2 wires to right/small rumble motor (SCPH-110)
  1 (red)   +7.5V
  2 (black) Q2

U1 ("SD707, 039 107")
  1 via R9/Q2 to M2 (right/small)     (digital 0V=off, 3V=on)
  2 via "JP1" to LED (330 ohm)
  3 +3.5V
  4 BUTTON Bit2 R3
  5 vr2 RX (lt/rt)
  6 vr1 RY (up/dn)
  7 vr4 LX (lt/rt)
  8 vr3 LY (up/dn)
  9 BUTTON Bit1 L3
  10 GND3
  11 GND7
  ---
  12 via Q1 to M1 (left/large)       (1V=off, 6V=fast)
  13 via D1/R7 to M1 (left/large)    (6.7V)
  14 +7.5V
  15 +7.5V
  16 BUTTON Bit8 L2
  17 BUTTON Bit10 L1
  18 BUTTON Bit4 UP
  19 BUTTON Bit5 RIGHT
  20 BUTTON Bit6 DOWN
  21 BUTTON Bit7 LEFT
  22 GND3
  ---
  23 BUTTON Bit9 R2
  24 BUTTON Bit11 R1
  25 BUTTON Bit12 TRIANGLE /  26 BUTTON Bit13 CIRCLE   ()
  27 BUTTON Bit14 CROSS    ><
  28 BUTTON Bit15 SQUARE   []
  29 BUTTON Bit3 START
  30 BUTTON Bit0 SELECT
  31 ANALOG BUTTON
  32 NC
  33 +3.5V
  ---
  34 GND3
  35 NC
  36 via R5 to /IRQ7
  37 via R1 to /SEL
  38 via R4 to CMD
  39 via R3 to DAT
  40 via R2 to CLK
  41 +7.5V
  42 +7.5V
  43 GND7
  44 GND7

Misc
VR1..VR4 -- analog inputs
R1..R5 -- signals to/from psx
R6              ?
R7              M1
R8
R9
R10
JP1
C1 3.5V to GND3 (22uF)
C2 3.5V to GND3 (U1)
C3 VR1 to GND3
C4 VR2 to GND3
C5 VR3 to GND3
C6 VR4 to GND3
C7 M2+ to M2-
C8 M1+ to M1-
C9 M1 related
S5
S6

Motors
 Left/Large Motor (SCPH-110)
  23.0mm Total Length (12.0mm Motor, 3mm Axis, 8.0mm Weight/plates)
  24.0mm Diameter (Motor), 20.0mm Diameter (Weight/plates)
 Right/Small Motor (SCPH-110)
  25.4mm Total Length (18.7mm Motor, 2mm Axis, 4.7mm Weight/plates)
  12.0mm Width/Diameter (of Weight, and of Motor at flat side)

  M1+ --o---Q1---o--------- U1.12
        |   |    |          analog
  Left  |   |    C9
  Large |   |    |
        |   o----o--------- 7.5V
        |        |
       C8       R7
        |   D1   |          6.7V
        o---|>|--o--------- U1.13
        |
  M1- --o------------------ GND7

D1 is probably a Z-diode with R7 as pull-up, creating a reference/source
voltage at U1.13 for the analog output at U1.12.

  M2+ --o------------------ 7.5V
        |
  Right |   o-------o--R9-- U1.1
  Small |   |       |       on/off
       C7   |       R10
        |   |       |
  M2- --o---Q2------o------ GND7
                                   ___                          ___ ____
       axis                       |   |                        /   \         __/___                 ______| m |        __.____________|__.  |    |
   /__/__/ |               | w |  |   |       |     | | axis  |     |    |
  |      |/  weight        |___|  |___|        \___/_/         \___/____/
   \____/                                      weight             motor

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by DD-Indeed » July 11th, 2017, 9:32 am

That was bit heavy reading, but thanks from this information. :) And yes, it was a typo from me, I meant 1180 obviosly.

Now, since I bought that one controller, I've managed to get two more, so I now have three 1180's. I put them all apart, washed the cases and the buttons and changed new membrane rubbers to them, so they're in good shape now.

But, during that service, I noticed something very interesting: there were two revisions of Dual Analogs back in the day.
Not just the rumble (JP) and without the rumble (rest of the world), but there was two different kind of analog pad mechanisms on them. One of them was having those round metal axles I mentioned earlier, where the pad could spin around, and the other two had oval shaped plastic axles to prevent the pad from spinning/reduce costs. I can open them up and take some more photos if you need some.

Also, yea, the basic Dual Shock went through many revisions and got cheaper and cheaper by the end of the console's lifecycle. I have two PSOne controllers too, from which both are completely different; other one is pretty regular quality, but the second one is made very cheaply, possibly one of the last batches of those.

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by nocash » July 11th, 2017, 10:18 am

Yes, more pictures or part numbers would be great!

Yup, I've meanwhile figured out that there are a bunch of revisions for various analog/digital pads, this page has some (lowres) PCB photos: http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/pcb_wi ... B_DIAGRAMS for different models (if your browser doesn't take you to the "PCB Diagrams" chapter: press PageUp one or two times).

I am not sure if I understand what you mean by metal axles causing the pad to spin around... Is that the whole joypad suddenly lifting up like an helicopter? Or the DPAD, or the analog joysticks spinning somehow?

Or wait, I think I've got it: Just noticed that I can turn the SCPH-1180 joystick heads like paddles/dials (of course without any rotation sensor behind them), it doesn't feel too problematic to me, but I guess it could somehow "glitch away", if you are pushing too hard, or if the heads are too loose. If it's getting too worse then it could be probably fixed with some glue.

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by DD-Indeed » July 11th, 2017, 11:07 am

nocash wrote:Yes, more pictures or part numbers would be great!

Yup, I've meanwhile figured out that there are a bunch of revisions for various analog/digital pads, this page has some (lowres) PCB photos: http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/pcb_wi ... B_DIAGRAMS for different models (if your browser doesn't take you to the "PCB Diagrams" chapter: press PageUp one or two times).

I am not sure if I understand what you mean by metal axles causing the pad to spin around... Is that the whole joypad suddenly lifting up like an helicopter? Or the DPAD, or the analog joysticks spinning somehow?

Or wait, I think I've got it: Just noticed that I can turn the SCPH-1180 joystick heads like paddles/dials (of course without any rotation sensor behind them), it doesn't feel too problematic to me, but I guess it could somehow "glitch away", if you are pushing too hard, or if the heads are too loose. If it's getting too worse then it could be probably fixed with some glue.

Yea, you got it now, the pad axle is just round axle on the other revision and the pads just spins like a knob on those, while on the other ones they don't due that oval shape on that axle. So you got one of those too, but I have at least one of those other ones. So yea, you definitely wanna document it up somewhere, once I get photos out of them. :) Dual Shocks had those oval shaped axles in all of them, so definitely the round axle-model has to be earlier revision of Dual Analog and the later revision used the same part as DS's. Sony managed to slightly change the design two times in 6 months, before pulling those out of sale. :D

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by DD-Indeed » July 13th, 2017, 6:44 am

I've been playing some games with Dual Analog for a while and I'm curious, that did you notice any lag with them, compared to regular Dual Shock ? I have a feeling, that they have design issues in terms of hardware. You mentioned something about that input delay, so that's correct ?
Last edited by DD-Indeed on July 13th, 2017, 8:32 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by TheShadowRunner » July 13th, 2017, 7:34 am

Strange, I own a Sony Analog Controller SCPH-1200, rev A (as written on the backlabel), made in japan, and if anything, I feel it's actually more reactive (less lag) than any other PSX pad i've tested, including the DualShock.

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by DD-Indeed » July 13th, 2017, 7:52 am

TheShadowRunner wrote:Strange, I own a Sony Analog Controller SCPH-1200, rev A (as written on the backlabel), made in japan, and if anything, I feel it's actually more reactive (less lag) than any other PSX pad i've tested, including the DualShock.

SCPH-1200 is a regular Dual Shock.

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by TheShadowRunner » July 13th, 2017, 7:58 am

Oh, ok, I thought these had 'Dual Shock' written on the back label, not 'Analog Controller'.

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by DD-Indeed » July 13th, 2017, 8:04 am

TheShadowRunner wrote:Oh, ok, I thought these had 'Dual Shock' written on the back label, not 'Analog Controller'.

Nope, Dual Shock 2 (PS2) had that written on the front side next to the cable output. PS1 Dual Shocks only read Analog Controller on the back.

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by nocash » July 13th, 2017, 8:31 am

No, I didn't notice any lag. Or do you mean that ugly 500 cycle delay being needed in the serial transfer? You'll never notice that with the offical kernel - since it's always using that even bigger delay with more than 2000 cycles - no matter what kind of controller you have connected.

It's only an issue if (any) games are trying to work around the kernel functions for gaining more cpu time (and also with my own kernel clone, which didn't have that nasty SCPH-1150 delay). I don't know if SCPH-1200 needs the delay, too. If it has the same "SD657" chip in there (?) then it does probably need the same delay.

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by DD-Indeed » July 13th, 2017, 8:34 am

nocash wrote:No, I didn't notice any lag. Or do you mean that ugly 500 cycle delay being needed in the serial transfer? You'll never notice that with the offical kernel - since it's always using that even bigger delay with more than 2000 cycles - no matter what kind of controller you have connected.

It's only an issue if (any) games are trying to work around the kernel functions for gaining more cpu time (and also with my own kernel clone, which didn't have that nasty SCPH-1150 delay). I don't know if SCPH-1200 needs the delay, too. If it has the same "SD657" chip in there (?) then it does probably need the same delay.
No, I just meant the actual lag in gaming, IE, when doing some action with the controller on them.

I'll do some comparison test with Dual Analog vs. Dual Shock in some games. I have a feeling, that Dual Analog has some lag, bad response time. And I'll take those pictures in the weekend, don't worry. :D

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by DD-Indeed » July 17th, 2017, 11:23 pm

Sorry about the delay, I couldn't examine and take photos of the controllers over the weekend, but now I'm working on it. This is the first set of photos, taken from that circle-axle model of SCPH-1180 Dual Analog-controller.

SCPH-1180 - Round Axle Analog Pads, Part 1, propably earlier revision

These are the three I have now and we start the picture gallery with the one on the left:
Image


First thing to notice on the inside is those lower shoulder button holders, makes it much easier to assembe the controller back:
Image


And here's the top part with controller boards attached:
Image

Image

Image

Image


Took a better picture of that chip on the board:
Image


And this is how the analog board looks like:
Image


And finally, the topside of the controller board:
Image



Second part coming up in a moment.
Last edited by DD-Indeed on July 18th, 2017, 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by DD-Indeed » July 17th, 2017, 11:51 pm

Okay, second set of photos, this time with the second controller on the middle.

SCPH-1180 - ''Flat Oval'' Axle Analog Pads, Part 2, propably second, cheaper revision

Dissassembly of the second controller of the picture.
Image


Nothing special in here, looks the same as the first controller:
Image

These three pictures also shows, that the boards looks pretty much the same as in the first controller:
Image

Image

Image


Now here things gets interesting. I took a good photo again from that chip on the board and noticed, that the analog board is Made In Korea! There was nothing like that reading in the first controller.
Image


Same thing is in here as well, the main board is Made In Korea, even thou, all of the controllers state on the back that they're Made In Japan. And pay attention to those axles on the analog pad mechanisms, thay are this flat oval shape ones to prevent the analog pads from spinning:
Image

Image


Quite interesting differences so far, I'll open the third one next.

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Re: Question about rare Dual Analog-controller

Post by DD-Indeed » July 18th, 2017, 12:04 am

Third and final set of photos.


SCPH-1180 - ''Flat Oval'' Axle Analog Pads, Part 3, propably second, cheaper revision


This controller is identical to the second one, so no differences can be found in these. Only difference I noticed between all of the controllers is the serial on the chip in the board, but that's propably just a manufacturing batch-number.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


I hope this was informative for people and that the photos are good enough, I don't have proper camera or phone with good camera to do this stuff.

But there you have it, it's now proved, that there was two revisions of Dual Analog-controllers during their short lifespan of roughly 6 months of manufacturing in 1997.

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